Human Sacrifice

.
It is my intention to speak (again) on the long-time practice of human sacrifice in Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and, how this has carried over into the political systems of control that were derived from lines of thought set down by these religions/ideologies.

I will speak again on how these religions have (from day one of their existence) encouraged their practitioners to sacrifice human lives singly and in masses.

The histories of these practice is related by adherents of these religions so this need not be looked on as "religious baiting". More so since I will at no time claim that the practice of killing other humans in the name of some supernatural force (or ideal) is unique to Abrahamic religions.

What is unique to them however is the practice of committing human sacrifice and calling it something else (even to themselves). Reliable inferences can be drawn from the identification of motives and actions that have changed in nothing other than name since the early days of humanity.

My purpose in doing this is to ask how ideologies that encourage/enjoin practitioners to take human lives can still claim to be humanist in orientation. There will be no ad hominem insults. There is no need for such as the truth (as evidenced by historical facts) will be enough.

I will start with the detailed mass slaughters in the bible's old testament that were allegedly done at the behest of an immaterial being (Yahweh - Deuteronomy 20:16, Numbers 31:7-18) and, I will ask how the killing in cold blood of women, children and the elderly by able-bodied men differs from the killings (AKA sacrificing) of prisoners by so-called pagans (in Africa,the Americas and pre-Christian Europe) since these (the 'pagans') were also doing what they did at the behest of some immaterial being(s).

I ask how the enjoinder to Muslims to slaughter recalcitrant 'infidels' (Quran 9:5) differentiates the actions of those Muslims who have done such through the ages from the genocides that were carried out by 'pagan' armies of old who would put entire towns to the sword because the inhabitants had not surrendered on time (e.g Mongol armies at Herat, Nishapur, and Zhangdu in the 13th century).

I will finally ask, how in this present age, the deliberate murder of millions in the South-East of Nigeria in the name of "keeping Nigeria one" by a government that was led by allegedly devout Christians and Muslims differ from the practice of previous States/Empires/Kingdoms who would also ritually murder citizens and strangers for the sake of ensuring a bountiful harvest or/and the wealth that comes from the mercies of the worshiped deity.

How do the ongoing slaughters in the Delta region of Nigeria, in Afghanistan and the Congo differ from the human sacrificing that conscientious religionists from the Abrahamic fold condemn so-called pagans for?

All of these killing/human sacrificing are done for some reason. In old times, those reasons were given names and called 'gods', today, they are still given names only those names come wrapped in palatable sound-bites that make the continued feeding of this ancient human appetite for homicide seem either like it has some ultimately noble purpose or, that it is somehow beyond the power of 'ordinary people' to stop.

Nothing has changed. In spite of what the Abrahamic religions claim, they have shone no light on any of the darkest regions of the human spirit and we carry on as we always have...fooling ourselves in the meantime that we are better that those that have gone before us.

[tonsoyo]

Eja,
Long time.
As hard as I tried to figure out what you are trying to say here, it still did not make sense to me. I would therefore like to ask the following questions to make sure we are on the same page, formulate the ground(s) of (dis)agreement before we proceed.

1. What is your own idea of human sacrifice? Can you please contextualize it?

2. What do you mean by Abrahamic religion? Please define?

3. Was the purpose of this write up to justify 'paganic' human sacrifice or to equate it to your so called Abrahamic religion human sacrifice?

Your answers to these questions as brief and succint as possible would be greatly appreciated. Right now your point is lost on me.

Thanks.

[nijalaw]

Originally Posted by tonsoyo

Eja,
Long time.
As hard as I tried to figure out what you are trying to say here, it still did not make sense to me. I would therefore like to ask the following questions to make sure we are on the same page, formulate the ground(s) of (dis)agreement before we proceed.

1. What is your own idea of human sacrifice? Can you please contextualize it?

2. What do you mean by Abrahamic religion? Please define?

3. Was the purpose of this write up to justify 'paganic' human sacrifice or to equate it to your so called Abrahamic religion human sacrifice?

Your answers to these questions as brief and succint as possible would be greatly appreciated. Right now your point is lost on me.

Thanks.

For me it is gobbledygook

[valteena]

Eja I get your point about human sacrifice and have wondered about a lot of these thing myself. Take these other approved killings for example.

Taking joy in the killing of infants in Psalm 137:8-9:

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays
you for what you have done to us-he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks."


Extreme beating of slaves condoned in Exodus 21:20-21:


"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a
direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the
slave is his property."


Isaiah 13:3:


"I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my warriors to carry
out my wrath - those who rejoice in my triumph."


This then leads to more rape and murder...


Isaiah 13:7:


"Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses will be looted and their wives ravished."


Isaiah 13:18:


"Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on
infants nor will they look with compassion on children."


Ezekiel 9:5-6:


"As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill,
without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch
anyone who has the mark."


Leviticus 20:9:


"'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death."


Moses said in Numbers 31:17-18:


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who
has never slept with a man."


Torture attributed to God, Jesus and the Holy Angels in Revelation 14:10:


"he, too, will drink of the wine of
God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He
will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of
the Lamb."


Hosea 13:16:


"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the
sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."

I choose to let the words speak for themselves, so that we honestly confront what the words say. I still find it hard to see how God could EVER advocate taking JOY ("HAPPY IS HE") in the brutal killing of infants, no matter what the apparent justification. And I can't help but wonder is the bible really the word of God as it is widely claimed?

[superego]

Eja. Please prove human sacrifice as ordained for adherents in the Quran or I will proceed to ask the mods to warn you for a false accusation, religious baiting and incitement.

Originally Posted by valteena

Eja I get your point about human sacrifice and have wondered about a lot of these thing myself. Take these other approved killings for example.




I choose to let the words speak for themselves, so that we honestly confront what the words say. I still find it hard to see how God could EVER advocate taking JOY ("HAPPY IS HE") in the brutal killing of infants, no matter what the apparent justification. And I can't help but wonder is the bible really the word of God as it is widely claimed?

It is good to read the Bible with understanding.
The Bible is more than letters.
The letter kills but the Spirit gives life

The psalmist here after a war with Babylon calls for revenge and says

Psalm 137:8-9:

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays
you for what you have done to us-he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks

."

But

Jesus said,

"You have heard that people used to say, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, Do not fight against *evil. If someone hits you on the right side of your face, let him hit you on the other side also" (Matthew 5:38-39

Revenge is not of God.

Extreme beating of slaves condoned in Exodus 21:20-21:


"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a
direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the
slave is his property."

I don't see where beating was condoned in that verse,however, we have a better covenant than the levitical laws.

This is the reason Christ came


Galatians 3 :27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Namio]

Eja & Val,

Thank you very much. Humans are full of hypocrisy, it is unbelievable. Most of the wars in the world have basis in religion between our god and their god. Religion still blesses people before going to war to kill.

Tonsoyo,

I can tell you the difference. If you kill and you were conquered, that is murder and very inhuman. If you kill and you are the victors, that is god's way and decent. Do not forget collateral damages, it is inevitable to accomplish god's mission.

We should all stop fooling ourselves, we support killing depending on which side we are.

Since we have become "civilized", we now do overt and silent missions. What you can accomplish by knives with blood gushing out, you can accomplish by a single bullet without blood in a "civilized" way. Better still, neutron bomb can destroy people with property intact.

[tonsoyo]

Thanks Hotmama. I am still waiting for Eja to answer my questions to avoid those slippery arguments that may follow this kind of thread.

It is totally ironic to have Christianity listed up there, because abolishing the allegations up there are the SOLE ESSENCE of Xtianity.

[superego]

Originally Posted by Namio

Eja & Val,

Thank you very much. Humans are full of hypocrisy, it is unbelievable. Most of the wars in the world have basis in religion between our god and their god. Religion still blesses people before going to war to kill.
..

That is not true.

The greatest genocides in history were by three individuals. All agnostic/a-religious/anti-religious/Atheists.(aka believers in disbelief)

Joseph Stalin 23 Million!
Mao Zedong 78 Million
and
Adolf Hitler 12 Million!



Together these three killed 1000xs what all religious wars have killed combined.

Get ur facts right. Thank me later.

Leviticus 20:9:


"'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death."


Moses said in Numbers 31:17-18:


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who
has never slept with a man."

Again the levitical laws served their purposes until God came down as man in the person of Jesus Christ with a better covenant
Read the whole of Galatians 3 and this in particular.

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Jesus Christ and his shed blood is the embodiment of the law.
The law could not impart righteousness and at the fullness of time,that Seed which is Christ came and did that fiinal sacrifice.
The levitical laws served their purposes but we now have a more excellent way.

[Eja]

Tonsoyo, the answers to your questions are in my first post on this thread. I will reiterate.

Your question:

What is your own idea of human sacrifice? Can you please contextualize it?

Answer (from 3rd paragraph) :

the practice of killing other humans in the name of some supernatural force (or ideal).

Furthermore, while we have been made aware that homicidal acts preceded by rituals such as incantations (when the process is allegedly in the name of some supernatural being) is human sacrifice, we fail to recognise the similarities when we witness the launching of modern wars in the name of near divine ideals called "democracy" and "human rights".

We have been conditioned to view the ritualistic pronouncements of leaders at the altar-like podiums of the UN as normal (if unfortunate) aspects of our 'modern' enlightened age. Yet, these are actually viable examples of precursors to human sacrifice (regardless of what we are told to call them).

Then there is the licensing of selected individuals that enables them to commit homicide against non-combatants without repercussion. The priesthood in the case of so-called pagans and, bodies like Air Command in the case of so-called democracies.

Again: human sacrifice is any act that involves the killing other humans in the name of some supernatural force (or ideal)
.
.
.

Your question :

What do you mean by Abrahamic religion? Please define?

Answer (from 1st paragraph) :

Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam)

.
.
.

Your question :

Was the purpose of this write up to justify 'paganic' human sacrifice or to equate it to your so called Abrahamic religion human sacrifice?

To point out, as stated in the last paragraph that :

Nothing has changed. In spite of what the Abrahamic religions claim, they have shone no light on any of the darkest regions of the human spirit and we carry on as we always have...fooling ourselves in the meantime that we are better that those that have gone before us.

To elaborate further, for as long as we keep fooling ourselves (or allowing ourselves to be fooled) into believing that these religions/ideologies are in themselves capable of eradicating the worst aspects of human nature, we trap ourselves in an evolutionary cul-de-sac; we cease the holistic progression that had marked our collective growth from barbarism to true civilization.

In short, let us not mistake technological progress for civilization and let us not allow linguistic manipulations to stop us from seeing what is actually going on. In real terms, there is little difference between the 'modern' man of today and those who lived before the advent of Abrahamic religions.

[tonsoyo]

Originally Posted by Namio

Eja & Val,

Thank you very much. Humans are full of hypocrisy, it is unbelievable. Most of the wars in the world have basis in religion between our god and their god. Religion still blesses people before going to war to kill.

Tonsoyo,

I can tell you the difference. If you kill and you were conquered, that is murder and very inhuman. If you kill and you are the victors, that is god's way and decent. Do not forget collateral damages, it is inevitable to accomplish god's mission.

We should all stop fooling ourselves, we support killing depending on which side we are.

Since we have become "civilized", we now do overt and silent missions. What you can accomplish by knives with blood gushing out, you can accomplish by a single bullet without blood in a "civilized" way. Better still, neutron bomb can destroy people with property intact.

Namio,
I still do not get the point, please help me out here.

Was the Biafran war fought because God or the gods of the North/West was different from that of the East?

Can those deaths be classified as huamn sacrifice within the context of spiritualism or religious rites?

If yes, What religion v. What religion?

[Eja]

Originally Posted by superego

Eja. Please prove human sacrifice as ordained for adherents in the Quran or I will proceed to ask the mods to warn you for a false accusation, religious baiting and incitement.

WRT the bolded, knock yourself out (as my Yankee friends would say).

Or you may prove the error in the following:

I ask how the enjoinder to Muslims to slaughter recalcitrant 'infidels' (Quran 9:5) differentiates the actions of those Muslims who have done such through the ages from the genocides that were carried out by 'pagan' armies of old who would put entire towns to the sword because the inhabitants had not surrendered on time (e.g Mongol armies at Herat, Nishapur, and Zhangdu in the 13th century).

[superego]

@Eja,

I will allow you one more attempt before I request you be warned for fabrication and baseless slander.


http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_d...&show_shakir=1

Quran 9:
4
Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
5.
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
6.
And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
7.
How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

8. How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.

Do I need explain?

I will do so in pidgin and english

Pidgin
I dey house, you dey ur house, u dey attack me dey lay ambush for me, dey kill my people. We are at war. I will kill u mercilessly till u desist from killing me and mine. This is NOT human sacrifice, this is simple law and order and self defense. Make USA leave Osama to dey bomb towers?

English:
We signed peace treaties with many of these idolaters(even better than US that doesn't ever negotiate with terrorists). and we must honor that. But conflict remained with others who kept attacking and reigning terror on Muslims(Quote: they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you?), bombing twin towers, USS Cole etc. It is normal to send them hellfire missiles wherever they are located in any mountain of Afghanistan till they respect our lives and dare not kill any innocent aMerican...I mean Muslim again. Not so?

Is this human sacrifice?

[Eja]

Originally Posted by tonsoyo

Namio,
I still do not get the point, please help me out here.

Was the Biafran war fought because God or the gods of the North/West was different from that of the East?

Can those deaths be classified as huamn sacrifice within the context of spiritualism or religious rites?

If yes, What religion v. What religion?

The premise of my argument here is is based on this one thing : Things are not always called what they are.

There are many things in the world today which while not explicitly identified as being religious or spiritual in purpose, have all the characteristics that define religion/spiritualism.

For example, in the US that you live in, a school of thought claims that the very act of taking oath as President of the United States causes a person to become imbued with qualities that places him above all other men. I am sure that you are also aware of how many in that country view their flag with the same veneration that is given to religious/spiritual icons in other places (and times). Taking these two together will give a different perspective on the significance of the US President's war-making powers and, on the many declarations that have been made by military people regarding "fighting for the flag".

Coming to the Nigeria-Biafra War, this was fought with the intent to "keep Nigeria one". Keeping Nigeria one had become an ideal that apparently no human had the authority to over-ride. What would you call something that has such a force?

[superego]

Eja,

We are waiting for you to defend your baiting.

Please show us prescribed human sacrifice in the Quran.....

Some of us are allergic to lies and slander.

[tonsoyo]

Originally Posted by Eja

The premise of my argument here is is based on this one thing : Things are not always called what they are.

There are many things in the world today who while not explicitly identified as being religious or spiritual in purpose, have all the characteristics that define religion and spiritualism.

For example, in the US that you live in, there is a school of thought that claims that the very act of taking oath as President of the United States causes a person to become imbued with qualities that places him above all other men. I am sure that you are also aware of how many in that country view their flag with the same veneration that is given to religious/spiritual icons in other places (and times). Taking these two together will give a different perspective on the significance of the US President's war-making powers and, on the many declarations that have been made by military people regarding "fighting for the flag".

Coming to the Nigeria-Biafra War, this was fought with the intent to "keep Nigeria one". Keeping Nigeria one had become an ideal that apparently no human had the authority to over-ride. What would you call something that has such a force?

Eja,
Can you see why I asked you to contextualize your argument now? You have suceeded in making the argument more confusing by equating the mundane law and order system with spiritualism.

Where will you draw the line? Where is the parallel between"paganism" and maintenance of law and order to warrant comparison?

Were some of those who fought on both sides of Biafran war not involved in "paganism"? Why did you present them as parallels, alternatives or mutually exclusive concepts?

Explain yourself?

[tonsoyo]

Originally Posted by Eja

Tonsoyo, the answers to your questions are in my first post on this thread. I will reiterate.

Your question:

Answer (from 3rd paragraph) :

Furthermore, while we have been made aware that homicidal acts preceded by rituals such as incantations (when the process is allegedly in the name of some supernatural being) is human sacrifice, we fail to recognise the similarities when we witness the launching of modern wars in the name of near divine ideals called "democracy" and "human rights".

We have been conditioned to view the ritualistic pronouncements of leaders at the altar-like podiums of the UN as normal (if unfortunate) aspects of our 'modern' enlightened age. Yet, these are actually viable examples of precursors to human sacrifice (regardless of what we are told to call them).

Then there is the licensing of selected individuals that enables them to commit homicide against non-combatants without repercussion. The priesthood in the case of so-called pagans and, bodies like Air Command in the case of so-called democracies.

Again: human sacrifice is any act that involves the killing other humans in the name of some supernatural force (or ideal)
.
.
.

Your question :

Answer (from 1st paragraph) :
.
.
.

Your question :

To point out, as stated in the last paragraph that :

To elaborate further, for as long as we keep fooling ourselves (or allowing ourselves to be fooled) into believing that these religions/ideologies are in themselves capable of eradicating the worst aspects of human nature, we trap ourselves in an evolutionary cul-de-sac; we cease the holistic progression that had marked our collective growth from barbarism to true civilization.

In short, let us not mistake technological progress for civilization and let us not allow linguistic manipulations to stop us from seeing what is actually going on. In real terms, there is little difference between the 'modern' man of today and those who lived before the advent of Abrahamic religions.

Eja,
Just saw this.
The only thing I can take away from this argument is that you are against organized system of government. Where human makes their rules of engagement and presribed penalties for their violations.
You equated adherence and enforcement of law and order with religion, is that because you believe it is not different from our primitive state of nature?

The argument in itself is self-defeating as long as we have have the so called pagans, Moslems, Christians etc subscribed to law and order. It cannot be a parallel to them.

The only thing I am going to correct is classifying Christianity as Abrahamic religion. Far from it. Abrahamic religion was as enforced under the Mosaic laws, and we still have it as Judaism based on the Old Testament in the Bible.

If the Old Testament was perfect there would have been no reason to raise a New Testament. The Old Testament was the Convenant of Abraham, where what you alluded to was practised.
The abolition of those practises and shedding of any form of blood for worship, be it that of animal or human was why Jesus came and a New Convenant was created. Jesus himseld been the final blood sacrifice!

You need show me where any form of blood sacrifice was offered since Jesus died on the cross by Christians in the Bible. To attribute blood sacrifice to Xtianity is to accuse Xtianity of the sole thing it has come to achieve albeit baselessly.

Christianity has nothing to do with blood sacrifice sir and it is a worship of God through Christ as opposed to through the convenant of Abraham.

[Namio]

Superego,

Who were these people revolting against, what culture and what religion were they trying to abolish?


Tonsoyo,

Ah! Biafra eh? The Muslim North trying to kill off the Christian South, abi. You may need to ask the suppliers of their arms.

Religion that divides North and South even before the war and still burn the Country up to now.

It is religion that teaches us to accept inequalities and wait for our reward in heaven. That is the same religion used to bless the slaves.

Once we realize that our relationship with God is one to one in private, accumulation of wealth by religion will cease. Lamomu and Pope na gbaladun.

Originally Posted by superego

That is not true.

The greatest genocides in history were by three individuals. All agnostic/a-religious/anti-religious/Atheists.(aka believers in disbelief)

Joseph Stalin 23 Million!
Mao Zedong 78 Million
and
Adolf Hitler 12 Million!



Together these three killed 1000xs what all religious wars have killed combined.

Get ur facts right. Thank me later.