Arrest Warrant for Sudanese President - ICC

[liloldlady]

=valteena;333288Miliki Way what exactly is you guy's point here. So because leaders and countries like Bush and Isreal are getting away with war crimes, the Sudanese leader should be allowed to continue his campaign of murder, extermination, rape, torture and forcibly transferring large numbers of an ethnic group?

No. I am sure nobody wants above highlighted part.
Just that the timing of this warrant is really bad. Whats the rush? what is so urgent about doing it now, when those two are not even being mentioned?
The politics of it is so obvious.

[DoubleWahala]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

No. I am sure nobody wants above highlighted part.
Just that the timing of this warrant is really bad. Whats the rush? what is so urgent about doing it now, when those two are not even being mentioned?
The politics of it is so obvious.

Well, i'm sorry, but it is not "obvious" to me. Care to break it down for a mere mortal like moi?

your humble servant,

DoubleWahala

[No Smoking]

Just been watching a newsreport on the janjaweeds demonstrating in the Sudan.

The indictment coming now is fantastic. Bashir now knows there is a price on his head. It will help to focus his mind on the fact that, after all, his own days are numbered..

[valteena]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

No. I am sure nobody wants above highlighted part.
Just that the timing of this warrant is really bad. Whats the rush? what is so urgent about doing it now, when those two are not even being mentioned?
The politics of it is so obvious.

How do you mean by timing liloldlady?. can you expantiate pls.

Originally Posted by DoubleWahala

Well, i'm sorry, but it is not "obvious" to me. Care to break it down for a mere mortal like moi?

your humble servant,

DoubleWahala

Oopps someone else seem to have beaten me to the question Liloldlady so I withdraw mine. Over to you.

[valteena]

Originally Posted by No Smoking

Just been watching a newsreport on the janjaweeds demonstrating in the Sudan.

The indictment coming now is fantastic. Bashir now knows there is a price on his head. It will help to focus his mind on the fact that, after all, his own days are numbered..

You're sure right on this. His political future will certainly come under close scrutiny especially with the country's national elections due sometime this year.

[Celticologist]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

The politics of it is so obvious.

But why is this "politics"?. ICC does not speak on behalf of the west. Would we be saying these if any of Rwanda's top Hutu killers is declared wanted by the ICC? Or is hanged by Rwandans and fed to the dogs afterwards?.

Seriously, the only reason why this murderer will be free for a long time is because China, Russia, Arab League and the AU will protect him. It is not a coincidence that all of these countries and groups have a history of corruption, dictatorship and detestable human rights records in common.

[Celticologist]

Originally Posted by charles4u

Yes they will find a way of putting those African leaders involve too, UK started it and were the main originator of slavery and killings in Nigeria so they should be prosecuted first and we will put other involve also.
[/I]

LOL!. The United Kingdom started slavery and killings in Nigeria?. Want to point me to some source?.

[Auspicious]

+

Hi, Folks!

It is the politics - it is obvious.

Argh! I mean - it is the timing.

Damn! Jeeze. Sorry o'jare - I mean the season.

How can you issue and arrest warrant in the hammartan?

There's definitely politics involved - seriously politics in it!

Auspicious.

[ojemba]

The only question now is when will they hang Bashir, because hang he must. For your information South Sudan is as good as gone from the Union with the North, who is the 1diot that would want to remain in a nation with such animals!! The only lingering question is Darfur, even though the Darfurians foolishly made themselves a willing tool in the hands of the Arabs against the South they may also need their own nation if it becomes impossible for them to reconcile with their erstwhile Arab allies.

[liloldlady]

Originally Posted by valteena

How do you mean by timing liloldlady?. can you expantiate pls.

By July the Sudanese elections would have taken place, with the threat of the ICC warrant looming over his head, El-Bashir would be further marginalised
thus limiting his electablility.
what we have seen now, is a situation whereby the ICC has angered the general populace, which more than likely, will have them voting for the man, in a bid to counter what they are already protesting, as a form of western imperialism, and double standards.
Without this present ICC warrant, One of the current Vice Presidents Salvar Kiir, who favours independence of the south, being elected would have been a more vialble prospect, thereby extinguishing the main reason, for the protracted civil war that has been going on.

There is a stalled peace process right now, and the prospect of resuming same, with El-Bashir and his men being antagonised, is less than slim, with this latest development.
There actually was a reasonable prospect of Negotiated peace in Western Dafur, which would have gone a long way, to save lives, and stop or at least stem the flow of the present bloodshed.

What we have is a situation where Aid bodies are being ordered out. (Including MSF, the only source of health care in the troubled West)
ICC does not have its own police force. Most of the countries that can give this man sanctuary, are not signatories to this accord, and are therefore under no obligation, to hand him over, should he venture to these places.

What use at this point, does it therefore serve, to put all these lives at risk, by exercerbating the situation, that is already unstable, when by July this year, there is a reasonable prospect of him being an easier target to apprehend, since the chances of him remaining in power after then is slim.

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

What we have is a situation where Aid bodies are being ordered out. (Including MSF, the only source of health care in the troubled West)
ICC does not have its own police force. Most of the countries that can give this man sanctuary, are not signatories to this accord, and are therefore under no obligation, to hand him over, should he venture to these places.

Noriega was rendered extra-ordinarily to the US, was he not?
Time for a repeat.

[liloldlady]

Originally Posted by DaBishop

Noriega was rendered extra-ordinarily to the US, was he not?
Time for a repeat.

I am all for trying El-Bashir, And Jailing him till the end of his natural days.
However, What I cannot advocate for, is doing it, in such a way, that more innocent lives will be lost.
I am a firm believer in Picking low hanging fruit.
It would not have hurt to wait till July, and at least see what happens with the elections.
Right now any prospect of peace is in disarray, and the losers are the innocent people, who are being slaughtered day in day out. And who will continue to die unless there is peace in that Country.

Noriega was eating with the Devil, as we all know, and forgot to use a Looooong spoon. Its that simple.
If you know the Noriega story, you know its completely different from this one.

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

I am all for trying El-Bashir, And Jailing him till the end of his natural days.
However, What I cannot advocate for, is doing it, in such a way, that more innocent lives will be lost.
I am a firm believer in Picking low hanging fruit.
It would not have hurt to wait till July, and at least see what happens with the elections.
Right now any prospect of peace is in disarray, and the losers are the innocent people, who are being slaughtered day in day out. And who will continue to die unless there is peace in that Country.

Noriega was eating with the Devil, as we all know, and forgot to use a Looooong spoon. Its that simple.
If you know the Noriega story, you know its completely different from this one.

I remember writing a Petition to State Department in the early days of Collin Powell in regard to the Janjaweed of Sudan. How low do you want this over-ripe fruity (pun intended) to hang before we pluck him? When he kills anoda million?

[Miliki Way]

Originally Posted by Celticologist

Drawing a flawed moral equivalence are we.

No, Celtico. I'm just stating the irrefutable FACTS.

Originally Posted by Celticologist

1. F16 jets did not set out to kill civilians. Janjaweed was out to wipe out some africans, kill, rape, hack to pieces those unable to run!.

Whether the F16 jets set out to kill civilians is not the point. The point is the Iraq war was an ILLEGAL WAR and Iraq did not pose any credible threat to the US. Those are irrefutable facts that have been beaten to death already. The fact of the matter is soldiers and civilians alike end up getting killed during wars, but when the premise for waging a war is disingenous, flawed and most importantly illegal, then any deaths (most especially civilians) arising therefrom, in my opinion, amounts to murder. And the blame falls squarely on the shoulder of the commander in chief who authorizes the illegal war.

As to the janjaweeds and the arrest warrant on the Sudanese president, I think my position on that is pretty clear but I'm going to repeat myself here again just in case I haven't stated it clearly enough. He (the Sudanese president) deserves all condemnation imaginable for authorizing a genocide and should be shot when caught (i.e. after trials).

Originally Posted by Celticologist

2. F16 Pilots don't pull any trigger. They select targets and press buttons that release bombs.

Ikorodu na Lagos.

Trigger o, button o, all na the same thing.

Originally Posted by Celticologist

3. It just happened that the US definately had to drive Saddam Hussein out!. Not like such government should be left alone anyways. Iran should be next.

Again, that issue has been beaten to death already and majority of Americans have finally seen through the lies. If the Iraq war and Saddam's removal was necessary, McCain and Palin would be occupying the White House this minute.

[Auspicious]

+

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

If Umaru Bashiru sinned and needs to face the music,

And the Musicians are ready to play him his favorite tune,

The sooner they played and made him dance, the better!

His importance to Sudan's peace is grossly over-rated.

Hang the Bastard!

Auspicious.

[Miliki Way]

Originally Posted by valteena

Miliki Way what exactly is you guy's point here. So because leaders and countries like Bush and Isreal are getting away with war crimes, the Sudanese leader should be allowed to continue his campaign of murder, extermination, rape, torture and forcibly transferring large numbers of an ethnic group?.

No. You are missing the point. The ICC can walk and chew gum at the same time. The question is what are they waiting for before issuing an arrest warrant on Bush jnr for what you've stated in bold above.

[liloldlady]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

+

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

If Umaru Bashiru sinned and needs to face the music,

And the Musicians are ready to play him his favorite tune,

The sooner they played and made him dance, the better!

Hang the Bastard!

Auspicious.

To go through the motions, of bringing him to justice, when all that will be achieved, is an exercise in futility, is a cynical, and grave injustice, to the innocent people who perished under this man, don't ya think?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

To go through the motions, of bringing him to justice, when all that will be achieved, is an exercise in futility, is a cynical, and grave injustice, to the innocent people who perished under this man, don't ya think?

Hi, LiloldLady!

No, that isn't equal to going "though the motions"..

Plus, it will NEVER amount to an excercise in futility. WHY?

Well, for one, it will serve as a lesson for genociders elsewhere.

Enough for them to think twice before they facilitate such crimes.

This is NOT just about the crimes against the people in that area..

It's about this: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

Likewise, justice somewhere advances the cause of justice everywhere!

So when justice is seen to served swiftly and forcefuly on Omar Bashir..

It would advance the cause of Justice elsewhere - maybe Cheney would be tried someday!

One small step against a local tyrant in Sudan, one giant step for the cause of justice across the world.

Hang the Fool!

Auspicious.

[DoubleWahala]

Originally Posted by liloldlady

By July the Sudanese elections would have taken place, with the threat of the ICC warrant looming over his head, El-Bashir would be further marginalised thus limiting his electablility.
what we have seen now, is a situation whereby the ICC has angered the general populace, which more than likely, will have them voting for the man, in a bid to counter what they are already protesting, as a form of western imperialism, and double standards.
Without this present ICC warrant, One of the current Vice Presidents Salvar Kiir, who favours independence of the south, being elected would have been a more vialble prospect, thereby extinguishing the main reason, for the protracted civil war that has been going on.

There is a stalled peace process right now, and the prospect of resuming same, with El-Bashir and his men being antagonised, is less than slim, with this latest development.
There actually was a reasonable prospect of Negotiated peace in Western Dafur, which would have gone a long way, to save lives, and stop or at least stem the flow of the present bloodshed.

What we have is a situation where Aid bodies are being ordered out. (Including MSF, the only source of health care in the troubled West)
ICC does not have its own police force. Most of the countries that can give this man sanctuary, are not signatories to this accord, and are therefore under no obligation, to hand him over, should he venture to these places.

What use at this point, does it therefore serve, to put all these lives at risk, by exercerbating the situation, that is already unstable, when by July this year, there is a reasonable prospect of him being an easier target to apprehend, since the chances of him remaining in power after then is slim.

You're still silent on why the "politics of it is so obvious". Anyway...moving on, I challenge your assertions highlighted in blue, above. It is unclear at this point, if your assertions are factual, or are largely inferences/opinion drawn from your reading of the situation.

If they are factual, please direct me to the source(s) of your factual information.

Questions:

1. What do you mean by the term "general populace"? Are non-muslims there included in your definition?

2. What do you mean by "more viable prospect"? "Viable" as determined by whom? What is the realistic probability that this "viable prospect" would have, (if not for ICC 'meddling') in fact, become a reality, come July?

3. How did you arrive at this declaration of "reasonable prospect of a negotiated peace"? "Reasonable prospect", as determined by whom?


Obviously, if the premise(s) of your post above are factual, then i have no problems with it. However, it is far from clear that they are indeed factual.

DW

[peterosa]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lord come and help your people Ooooooooooooo for african. {na poor man mess de smell for public}