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Discussion in 'The Main Square' started by Anioma777, Dec 10, 2011.
Tam David West is either lying or doesn't understand economics or most likely is just trying his hand at populist politics.
And this demand to fix the refineries or build new ones has now become comedy.
The issue is NOT refineries, it's the pricing of the product.
You are entitled to ya opinion, but you cannot create ya facts. What part of what he narrated is a lie? kindly show us, he is in the know...he was Minister of petroleum. While you analyze his economics, disprove his facts.
Subsidy removal:I'm ready for mass revolt -Jonathan
-Find alternative - Agbakoba, Falana, others tell President
From IHEANACHO NWOSU, Abuja
Sunday, December 11, 2011
President Goodluck Jonathan, at the weekend, vowed to take the option of social revolt from Nigerians than back down on his plan to withdraw the subsidy on fuel.
He said his insistence was informed by his knowledge that Nigeria's economy will collapse in two years if the subsidy is sustained.
Sunday Sun learnt President Jonathan stated this at a meeting with the leadership of some civil society organizations at the President Villa in Abuja, which was also attended by Vice President Namadi Sambo, the Minister of Finance and Coordinator of the Economic Team, Dr Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, and her Petroleum Resources counterpart, Mrs Diezani Alison-Madueke
Notable names at the meeting included the former President, Nigeria Bar Association (NBA), Olisa Agbakoba, Femi Falana, Chidi Odinkalu, Sam Amadi, Dr Oma Nwokeocha and Emma Ezeazu.
Others are Mahmud Abdul, Ms Annkio Briggs, Tony Uranta, Emmanuel Onwubuiko, Auwal Musa Rafsanjani and Toyosi Akerele.
A source at the meeting, which lasted between 11pm and 3am, told Sunday Sun that the President explained why his government was bent on removing the subsidy.
He said the economy was on the verge of collapse and only an assured extra revenue can halt the slide. To the Presidency, that alternative revenue is proceeds from the removal of the subsidy.
Reminded that Nigerians were totally opposed to the move, Jonathan, according to our source, said he was ready to face uprising from the masses than allow the economy to collapse.
He listed ways the proceeds from the subsidy removal would be put to use for the good of the masses. For a start, he said a seven-member trust fund akin to the defunct Petroleum Trust Fund (PTF) established during the late Sani Abacha administration would be set up to administer the extra revenue accruable from the subsidy removal.
He also told the civil society team that apart from constructing and rehabilitating some infrastructure, he would direct state governments to forward a list of 20,000 unemployed youths each for immediate engagement.
He equally pledged to use the proceeds to tackle maternal mortality and the decay in the education sector.
Most of the civil society members at the meeting however disagreed with the President and his cabinet members, asking him to look for alternative means of reviving the economy rather than creating more hardship for the masses.
Agbakoba reportedly told the President that the maritime sector was a goldmine for a robust economy any day if it is well tapped into and advised the government to diversify the economy by exploring other options.
Falana and Onwubuiko similarly disagreed with the President's proposition, arguing that it would be defeatist for the government to narrow down Nigeria's economy to oil revenue only.
They argued that since over-dependence on oil in the past never grew the economy, it would be absurd for the present administration to continue on the same path of economic retrogression.
Both of them also reportedly told Jonathan that most of what he was promising to do with the extra oil revenue were already accommodated in the budget even without subsidy removal.
Sunday Sun however learnt that one of the civil society members backed the government plan and suggested that it should step up enlightenment campaign to enable the public see the merits of the move.
Towards achieving this, the government is said to have budgeted heavily for an hyper e-campaign propaganda to sway Nigerians to buy into the policy. It has been running advertorials in the media on the planned subsidy removal.
But at the next leg of the e-campaign, it plans to inundate Nigerians with a propaganda bliss using the social media such as Facebook, Twitter and Youtube.
NOTE:Are democratically-elected presidents supposed to run against their constituents?How does GEJ hope to contain mass protests when they come?A good pilot honourably steps aside for more capable hands,not tell the passengers that the plane is gonna crashland,unless you allow me to dive into the ocean!Agens
I'm altogether indifferent about Prof. Tam David-West but like DaBishop has said, please identify the portion of his narrative that is 'false'. I personally believe the term 'subsidy' is misleading. What we have here is a system where payments are directed to the likes of Oando, Dantata and Folawiyo that should instead be directed to maintaining domestic refineries in the interests of ALL Nigerians. The term 'subsidy' is misleading because in an oil-producing country, truly, natural justice suggests that the citizens could benefit from their natural endowment. This is akin to me having 'cheap' architectural services, Obugi having 'cheap' medical services or DaBishop having 'cheap' legal services because these are our respective professions. Nobody is denying the VALUE of the services when we provide them for ourselves but we certainly would not fork out cash to pay ourselves. We'd simply do the necessary work and enjoy the benefits of our training. That is why I disagree with your assertion that the 'pricing' of the product is the problem. We can acknowledge the price and simply understand that this is a competitive value that Nigerians derive. Has anyone ever computed the 'value' of 400-odd years 'free' labor that underpinned America's economy?
Instead of speaking about removing a subsidy, the Nigerian government should shine light on the figures (which it has begun doing), deconstruct the system, identify the primary offenders in the 'fuel importation' scam (from within NNPC etc.), DEMONSTRATE consequences for their actions and COMMUNICATE a schedule for REDIRECTING those sums toward internal refining, always bearing in mind that the 'fuel subsidy list' is merely or actually a roll-call of those who would rather die than see Nigeria's refineries function efficiently.
So at least we know the 'enemy'/ 'enemies'.
The Nigerian government must illustrate and communicate a process wherein it aligns with the interests of the larger populace AGAINST those who would rather make quick money and fake wealth by being middlemen in an unsustainable structure/system and one of the first things to remove is the so-called Petroleum Equalization Fund. Why should fuel cost the same everywhere? Does fuel indeed cost the same everywhere? In my part of the country (the oil producing Niger delta) ironically, fuel costs MORE!
The lie is in plain sight. What doess he mean there is no subsidy?
Go and check the threads on fuel susidy, refining where I've posted.
The problem is NOT refining. The problem is price fixing, monopoly and scarcity. Here are some FACTS you can sell in any market:
As long as petrol in Nigeria is priced by govt fiat below the world price, there will always be an incentive for corruption. It's like trying to stop the trade in illegal narcotics and the corruption that goes with it.
OK, so govt builds brand new refinery and sells to marketers at N30 and directs them to sell to the public at N65.
In Niger Republic petrol sells for N200....that's a true price, by the way. How are you going to stop corruption then?
Yes in your Niger Delta fuel costs more because of govt current policies that you support. Let me test you and see what you really know.
Where does most of the fuel sold in the South South & South East come from? Shebi you're a Niger Deltan? You need to go and ask questions, survey the situation in the real world before giving any credence to politically motivated utterances.
And yes, I'm ashamed of your comments here. The non Niger Deltans I can understand, but to read these your comments is a shame! Never mind me, just go down to PH, Aba and ask around.
Don't forget to answer my question....what is the predominant source of fuel in the Delta and surrounding areas? Let's see how much you know aabout this critical issue affecting your people. Stay there and keep pointing to your fathers barn with your left hand....
More specifically, an ex-minister of Petroleum has submitted the following as the problem...
Obugi, tell us where he lied!
Is the President and his cohorts not part of the oil-shiek club?
Have ministers, Fed Perm-secs and Chief Judges become Oil dealers or no? (TY confessed and gave back some)
If all the policy makers are getting theirs through scarcity, will they wish our refineries to work?
3 quick things.
1) I'm not on NVS to be 'tested' by you or anybody;
2) Your opinion of me doesn't matter; and,
3) I'm here to LEARN (from anybody, even you!)
That stated, PLEASE tell me what the lie is that is in your 'plain sight'.
Again, since I want to LEARN, you can choose to answer the questions you asked me while you are at it, primarily for my elucidation.
Kind thanks, Sir.
The lie I referred to is the claim that there's no subsidy.
It's very true that govt officials are making big money from corrupt practices in the industry. They do it because the law created opportunities for them to do so and being human beings they will take advantage. You Mr Bishop will do the same if you find yourself as the Director of Refining for NNPC. The solution is to remove the opportunity for bribes, not expand it by building more GOVERNMENT OWNED refineries.
Read the preceding paragraph again before you comment further on this thread!
As long as govt controls refineries and sets prices, there will always be officials who will take corrupt advantage.
It was the same with Nigeria Airways and NITEL. It's the nature of man. Real world experience shows that drastically reducing govt involvment in commerce also reduces corruption.
Think before you write!
End afflictions, Adeboye urges Jonathan
Written by Agency Reporter
The General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God, Pastor Enoch Adeboye, has urged President Goodluck Jonathan to take necessary steps to end the problems being experienced by Nigerians.
He made the call on Friday night at the Shiloh 2011 programme of the Living Faith Church, Otta, Ogun State, while responding to the President's message delivered by the Secretary to the Federal Government, Senator Pius Anyim.
Adeboye said, "Tell the President we are praying. We hope that the afflictions of the righteous in Nigeria will soon come to an end."
Anyim had in the presidential message noted that the country had been sustained by the prayers of churches in the country.
Meanwhile, the General Superintendent of the Deeper Life Bible Church Worldwide, Pastor William Kumuyi, has commended the Rivers State Governor, Rotimi Amaechi, for accomplishments in the state.
Speaking at the Government House on Friday, Kumuyi said, "I have seen some changes, this is one of the reasons why the good people of Rivers State actually love you. I think some of them would have wished there were the possibility of a third term; I think you would easily come in because of the things they have seen."
OBSERVATION:If GEJ could have enough faith in Daddy GO to go and kneel before him to obtain the man s blessings prior to his reelection,he must listen to the man of God.The man does not say much,but he knows when to drop "the last warnings!"Agens
E tu Kumuyi? This man must be regretting years of austerity theology and therefore wants to join the bandwagon in a big way.
Integrity is all but gone...
My simple advice is to read the thread where Fjord and I debated this issue, and the the other one about the new refinery in Niger Republic.
You want to learn. Well most of the fuel sold in South South/ South East comes from "illegal" private refineries. If you cared to think on it you'd realize why.
Here's what you and the rest of the greedy "Nigerians" pining for free fuel need to realize....as long as the govt, especially of an illegitimate State, sets prices or participates in ANY market anywhere in the world, there will be corruption and scarcity. You can take that to the bank.
Oh, just as a reminder, Nigeria doesn't produce any crude oil. Nigeria STEALS crude oil from the Niger Delta. That's why it's treated like free goodies with everyone scrambling for their share. Let the free market set a price and all these problems will disappear.
..methinkst EezeeBee is honest about his ignorance....and he really wants to acquire knowledge....Obugi, ya need to oblige and enlighten him...vivamus!
....Go On With One Nigeria......Eezeebee, have ya thought of changing ya name to GOWON....am just thinking loud...anywaz...
ma bad, kind of coincidental overlapping of posts....anywaz,...Obugi don answer the question self...thx!
Below is what the real problem is and any government that thinks that is the right way to go about things is corrupt. When my parents told me a longtime a go I was thinking does that make sense? Also I am somewhat bemused as to how GEJ in the article Agensheku posted knows for a fact the economy will collapse in 2 years. This is just scare mongering. I hardly know anything about economics but common sense tells me that if the subsidy bill goes ahead and fuel prices increase this will now have a domino effect and prices of most other products will spiral out of control thus making the already miserable and economic hardship of the average Nigerian even worse. This is irresponsible and wicked leadership. However there is a saying a nation deserves the leader(s) they get. The way MOST Nigerians were practically falling over themselves as if it was the second coming of Christ with their misguided notion GEJ was going to do any better than his predecessors was quite comical. Then again one might argue was the alternative any better?
I still cannot make up my mind if GEJ is either a lame duck or quite frankly does not give a damn and just binding his time until his tenure is over. Interesting times ahead.
I shall address all ya points seriatim to show you that I think before I write
Tam David West narrated what they did in government as a minister of petroleum who is not only in the know but also was the responsible party...This below, again is what he said...dispute it...
We produce crude in million barrels, we just do not know to refine it in sufficient quantities, makes sense that we can go into a deal to supply OUR PRODUCT from our oil wells in such an agreement with companies that already do business with us. so his story is not only plausible, but also believable because it is backed by position and experience.
Not true. Show us the law that created an opportunity for said paid government workers to make money off their duties. If you mean compliance, the laws on the books prohibit public servants from being conflicted, if anything, EFCC/ICPC Police ought to investigate and prosecute all who have offended sundry laws of our land. Although I am a lawyer, I am willing to learn of the law from you...How "They do it because the law created opportunities for them to do so" If in being human, they transgress the law, the law was made to arrest and punish humans who take advantage of the opportunities to transgress. In Israel a past president being jailed, in Chicago, a former governor bags 14 years. Are we less human?
Being the propagator of GetYours! and private thieving robber baron capitalists of the worst hue, you are wont to see any government interference in business as evil. But for developing economies, to leave all to the heartless manipulation of buccaneer business men will be to toll the death knell to an already near death populace. The chief capitalist country of the world just interfered in business, took public monies to put into private businesses in the current recession, and have not stopped, yet.
In mixed economies such as Nigeria, you could not allow that private parties ONLY invest in your major revenue earner...of course we are being stolen blind already. Compare Nigeria to Brazil or Venezuela who have government participation as well as proper regulation. They not only refine their products, they export their company franchise world-wide. CITCO Petrol stations that you see in the US are owned by Venezuela...Americans hate it, but their gas is lower in price, so they buy it. If Venezuela can do it, why not Nigeria? Because we want to leave it to Obugs to compete and regulate himself in regard to his greed in Getting Yours?
Can you post links to all your threads on this here, So I fit go read and understand ya point. I might have been having fun with ROMilikisu when you posted them.
One of the threads is "Una See Ngozi Again?"
The other is about the Refinery in Niger Republic, initiated by Denker.
There's also another called "Why Can't We Build Refineries(?)"
Try using Google too or the NVS search.
All you did in your post to counter my main point is say "Nigerians must obey the law"
Well we won't because we're human beings living in an illegitimate multiethnic ape republic.
Even you Bishop will not adhere to the "law" if you are put in charge of selling cheap fuel from NNPC refineries.
The Venezuela you cite is actually a good example of why govts must allow private production and also refrain from setting prices. Go and read the latest news from there and stop the wisful dreams of communal paradise.
And as a counterpoint to your example, I'll just write that every major oil producing country with a similar population and oil regulatory
profile to Nigeria suffers from the same problems as Nigeria.
The USA is still having economic problems today because it interfered in the markets. The only reason it looks like a benign strategy is they are rich enough to afford it. Besides that it also spawned a lot of corruption, which they can also afford.
And then know this too - the refining market in Nigeria is not a mixed market, it's a govt MONOPOLY. At least get your facts straight.
You're approaching the issue from a moral angle, but you CONVENIENTLY neglect the immorality of what our country has done - we STOLE AND CONTINUE STEALING oil that belongs to the people of the Niger Delta and use the money to provide for the rest of Nigeria.
If there was 100% ownership property rights in Nigeria, do you think any Ijaw or Ogoni man who owns an oil well will dash us his crude oil for free as is done today via the statutory allocations to NNPC? And if he builds a refinery on it will sell a Tiv or Yoruba man his fuel for N65?
I'm just making an example. Suppose Tiv people woke up one day and the Fed Govt seized ALL the yams you produce and decided to sell it to other Nigerians for N1 each?
Get back to the point of this discourse which is, on this thread, Tam David West's assertion that there is no subsidy. He has shown us what they did in the event of a country shortage of refined gas and how they paid for it with our refined products being sold overseas. He has also given us facts to capacity of refineries and our consumption needs.
If you have figures to show why we pay all those brief-case companies to 'supply' fuel and how much, pray tell us, so we may know why they may have deviated from the Buhari era practices as testified by the chief policy maker then in the Petroleum industry.
The argument that because Nigeria is an oil producer it should subsidise fuel is interesting. Nigeria produces Garri, Yams, Afang, Ewedu etc but I don't hear anyone insisting that these should be subsidised. Are these commodities not as important as or even more important than fuel?
What makes this argument even more interesting is that some of the proponents of this argument actually live in America, Canada and the UK which are equally oil producing countries in their own right but not only choose not to subsidise but actually tax fuel. Interestingly, even socialist UK which produces ca. 1.5 million barrels of crude daily with a population of 60 million (2 million daily production for Nigeria) actually taxes the consumption of fuel. Instead, our populists choose to compare Nigeria with places like Libya. Nigeria produces roughly the same quantity of oil as Libya, but Libya has a population of just 6 Million people, Nigeria has a population of 167 Million.
Proponents of subsidy also insist that the government should just build new refineries in order to continue supplying Nigerians with cheap fuel. What is the definition of stupidity again? We have done this before. We actually built 3 refineries in addition to the one we stole from Shell-BP. Why do you expect to have a different outcome in ten, twenty years time from what we have right now? Are you going to import aliens from outer space to manage them? Please do get real and stop this hypocrisy.